Interview with Knowledge’s Anthony Doyley (Part 2)
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Black News 
Interview with Knowledge’s Anthony Doyley (Part 2)
Where: Unknown
When: 2003
Reporter: Peter I
Photos: Nicolas Maslowski (Knowledge), Teacher (Tappa Zukie) Courtesy of the respective record companies (pics/labels/sleeves)
Copyright: 2024 – Peter I
KNOWLEDGE: THE TRENCH TOWN EXPERIENCE (THE INTERVIEW PART 2)
In this second part of the interview with Knowledge’s Anthony Doley, he reflects on Rastafarian beliefs, political violence in Jamaica, the deaths of several group members, and the challenges of surviving the turbulent reggae scene of the 1970s and 1980s. He also talks about his move to England, collaborations with Roy Cousins, his continued songwriting, and efforts to preserve Knowledge’s legacy.
So there was in fact no other producer involved with the group before Tappa entered?
No! No. The only person we ever actually did, or tried to do something with, was Errol Thompson.
Ah, for Joe Gibbs?
No, not that Errol Thompson, he was younger – he’s a boy (laughs)!
(Laughs)
We’re talking “ET”, on the radio.
OK, he died, yeah – JBC.
Yes, “Turntable Time”. He was the only person… he was like a brother to us. He used to make sure we have our lickle draw of money an’ food and take us faces as a… you know, celebrity. You know, so we enjoyed that. And then he said, “Bwoy, you love singin’, we can go to the studio”. So we went to studio to do this song… it’s called… goes something like “Some woman have a dread lock, some woman love a well right chap, some woman love a soul guy, so she can use him as a alibi” (laughs)! You know… yeah (chuckles)! But, we didn’t finish the song because the riddim was made but then Errol’s schedule was like “Bwoy, we can’t go to studio tonight. OK, we try, but tomorrow!” And then… so we didn’t finish the song. And here comes Tappa Zukie. And that’s it! The rest is just history. He said he wanted a group and he had a group waiting on him. When he heard the first two songs he said, “Come, we go to studio tomorrow”. And we booked the Black Ark studio, which is Lee Perry again now. So our first four songs that went number one and number two on the British reggae charts here in the seventies, was Lee Perry… was the engineer.
Which songs were cut in the Ark?
One was ‘Make Faith’. And ‘Sentry’, and ‘What’s Yours’.
All those done at Black Ark.
Black Ark, yeah. And ‘Zion’.
Did Perry recognise you after those years since that initial Randy’s session?
Oh yes! He said the moment he saw us and he saw me, because he had a assistant engineer then, and he said to the engineer, “You know what? I’m gonna do this session myself”. Because he was gonna allow the engineer, this assistant, to do it. But when he saw and heard what we were coming with, plus we had Sly & Robbie in the studio with us as well, as the rhythm section, with Chinna Smith and Gladdy (Anderson), and Sticky, and all these professionals. Yeah, so all these people were like OK, masters in their own right. So he said, “Bwoy, these are not gonna allow this to just come through like that”. So what he did was to do the session himself. He came and recorded it himself. So our first four songs were Lee Perry. And we got number one in the British reggae charts, and number two. So there now, A&M Records decided that they wanted a competition for The Wailers.
A&M didn’t have any serious involvement whatsoever before this – strange that they picked up a “hard sell” like your roots act and not a package for the mainstream (except for a one-off project with a few tracks by Alton Ellis, Ken Parker and Slim Smith in the early seventies Knowledge is still the only involvement in reggae A&M had), as far as I know – perhaps they had a few reggae fans among the staff, but usually this means; no experience of the reggae market, no real knowledge of the music, with the necessary know-how to market a group like that.
None a dem, no! And they wanted a competition to rival the sounds of Island. And the best thing for them was a group from Trench Town! So we fell in place there. And everything just went: “Wow! One list like that!” You know, we were in Billboard. And they told me, and Bob himself told me as well, they told me that they got someone who was non-prejudiced to put up the posters. And our posters was where you’d see Frank Sinatra, Earth Wind & Fire, Stevie Wonder – that’s where they’d put our posters, y’know. And we were… we got a massive promotional t’ing that went on in England in ’78. So when Bob came back from Europe he called me and said to me, “Bwoy, me go a England an’ me see photograph deh everywhere – me never know seh yu a sing!” So that’s when he knew how much I loved music! Was when he came back from England, and saw all these stickers, you understand (laughs)!
So obviously, there was what you’d call today a big hype behind the group at this point? Very hyped?
Oh, very big hype! Very big hype. We were the second… I don’t think anybody got the amount of money that we got as an advance in reggae music then. We were like getting the biggest money in reggae music outside of Bob Marley and Jimmy Cliff. Nobody else had that kind of money, getting that kind of money from record companies, but we did. But then now, the group started to detoriate because Michael Samuels now he got stuck with Tappa Zukie… You know, just want to drive around in Zukie’s BMW and be seen with Zukie an’ neglecting the rehearsals and went to England with Zukie and came back saying that he’s leaving the group.
This was in 1979. He came back and said he don’t want to know. So we said: “No problem”. And then Earl (McFarlane) now, he start to, like… certain things he wouldn’t do. And then he just except himself from the group, so he just left with Mikey an’ Delroy. And we just said: “You know what? No problem”. We’d go along.
(And then the subject switch quickly from Zukie’s role as producer to the discovery this evening, that very first Randy’s session for Lee Perry.)
Well, this is a blessing, y’know! You know that? This is a blessing, man. You’ve done something here that I’d never dreamt would have happened! This song here… oh bwoy! This song here… Because I’ve talked about this song for years and years now and nobody seems to get which part I was at, like knew wha’ I was saying. Because nobody could say to me “I’ve heard it before”. Or “Yeah man, me heard something like that”. Nobody. It’s like “Wow!” You know (laughs)! And here you are, just… I couldn’t believe it when you said it, yunno?
I thought: “Nah, he’s kidding, it’s not possible – claiming something he’s not responsible for nor involved with, making this up”.
No, you know what? I thought…
But this happens all the time, people claiming things they never were originally involved with.
Yeah, yeah. People do! I went to the passport office in the seventies in Jamaica, to get myself a passport, and there was two girls and a guy sitting down there, and I heard him saying to her, “Is me sing the tune yunno? Me a de Wailing Souls, y’know”. So this is me now rushing past and stop an’ seh, “Onnou pas’ Bread an’ Pipe”. When me look, a somebody me nuh know a claim seh him a the Wailing Soul fe impress the girls (laughs). So, people do things like that! But then, when you said it to me, I thought you was gonna play me a song that wasn’t this song…
Like, if some other group did a cut of the same tune, you mean?
Yeah, some other… not a version but something of the same word, but a different melody. But it’s the same thing! I couldn’t believe it!! Couldn’t believe this is… up to now, man! If you notice the name of the album… ‘Shocks…’- what?
‘Shocks of Mighty’.
‘… of Mighty’ (laughs)! A mighty shock! Everything is just falling into place, this is like ball and socket! Aaah, bwoy… this is mighty, this is mighty! Mighty, mighty…
I guess you can’t wait to get yourself a copy of the CD?!
I’m gonna buy it! Because next thing is that them haffe give me some royalties now. Trojan have to give me some royalties, this album has been out for… ages, man! And it must have been out on 45 years ago as well, in England. So Sanctuary/Trojan have got to talk to me, y’know. Just let me see what is done and how it’s done over the years an’ the places it reached. I should get my name on it now.
Right, get writers credit.
Yeah man, I’m gonna tell Norman about it. ‘Cause Norman is still a teacher in Jamaica.
So go out and grab a copy, as “evidence”.
Oh yes! I’m gonna buy it. That’s the first thing I’ll do. Whenever anything comes up I make sure I buy a copy. And peep… But the name of it – The Classics? And the thing is that now that you’ve said it, because we were… I think that’s our name, yunno? That’s our name, y’know? Our name… because…
Not something Perry made up?
No, that’s… Yeah, that’s our name. Because we were in school then and you know when you’re in high school and you feel that you’re like… represent the school that you’re in so you come up with a name like that. With a pseudonym that represent you, you understand me? So I think that… yeah! God ‘ave mercy. This is beautiful (laughs)!
By the way, what was the inspiration for that song? The lyric is unusually conscious for it’s time. It’s really roots reggae some five years before roots music became the fashion. I mean, a pretty laid back tune at a time when there was still a faster tempo in the music, so it stuck out somehow?
Well, that’s… you see? Because you see what happen is this: When I was growing up and I heard all these love songs from the Sam Cookes to the Brook Bentons to the Nat King Coles and the Percy Sledges – all these great lovers and writers of love songs, I was saying to myself that I didn’t want to be a part of that. And Norman was a revolutionary in mind as well. Because he was like against the system, or not just the system but the establishment in a sense of the things that was happening. Beca’ we were living in poverty, people was even poorer than us. You know, Norman came from nothing. When you go to Norman’s house, to get to Norman house you’ve got to jump over these green waters. Gunds in the water, it’s green – it’s still, and it’s there and not going away, and you’ve got to jump over it to reach his house. So it was poverty. It was serious, serious poverty. So, we were saying to ourselves as being priviledged to learn English and povilarise ourselves with words, and things like that. We were able to put that together and say “Boy, somet’ing like this is needed”. The lyrical contents are brilliant. I always think that from growing up, y’know? “Civilization, better organisation, to fight victimization, all the nations…”. I tell you, we used to have the word “black nations” in there, and I took the “black” out.
Yeah, because I said no, no, no! This is a universal song. Not militant – it’s a universal song. This is not just for a ethnic population, this is a universal. And that’s how I write until this day. If you listen to all my songs that I’ve written, they are universally written. None of dem is in a corner. You know, and I still write like that today. I think that’s a skill I’ve developed from a long time, to write universal and international lyrics. And it says… so we took out the “black” of it and it said “all the nations have gone astray, and they’ll have to unite one day”. So, there we are. So it was really roots music before roots music (laughs)! Yeah, I like that…
Now, this is something else to write about, this is something else now. Have you heard of Helene Lee?
I think she was linked with Alpha Blondy for a while?
Yes, she was married to Alpha Blondy. So, I met her a few weeks ago. She wrote this book…
‘The First Rasta’?
‘The First Rasta’, with Leonard Howell. And now she is writing another book on rasta but she thought it best to come to me to get some of the history. First handed, you understand? So I had a good conversation with her and she wrote me back and she said boy, she never met anybody with so much information before (laughs)! It’s like that… But, what I really liked about her writing this other book now is that she is taking rasta in its perspective from my point of view growing up during that era where the Morty Plannos and the Leonard Howells and the Reverend Henrys and all a those people, the Sam Browns, the Orthodox Church, all of those was coming through. And then now I as a person, I was even saying to my son the other day – he’s 21 now, I said, “Listen to me, I’m not gonna go through all of this being a rasta for you to come and don’t be a rasta, it don’t make sense”. It means that whatever I was doing was just individually for me, and it wasn’t. It’s for you. The next generation after you. And all the generations that is gonna come. “So don’t come and tell me that you’re gonna be shaving your face, and all a dat t’ing, and say you are my son”. So him seh, “Daddy, why yu so rough?” I said, “I’m not rough me son, it’s just simple, I did all a dat for my moral sake and sanity and that allows me now to parttake it unto you that you can be a better person with yourself also and with whoever you associate with”. So him say to me, “Daddy, me understand you”. Me seh, “Yu better, y’know”, because what I was thinking of is Marcus Garvey’s sons, none a dem came and took up the work…
Marcus Garvey Jr did actually do that, maybe not to the extent that his father did, but… they still did it.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying…
What’s the name of the organisation again?
UNIA, United Negro Improvement Association. So I’m saying, because this is all people that I know, I’ve met them from a early age, beca’ my grandparents were associates of them.
And Marcus Garvey Jr is working in medicine, in America?
Yes, he’s a doctor, yes. So, I’m saying, my son is not gonna come like that. My son is gonna be like Bob’s children. That’s how I look at it, beca’ Bob did all a that. Him seh “Not one of my seeds shall sit on the sidewalks…”.
“… and beg bread”.
You understand me. So I’m saying the same thing to my kids “Listen, this is something that I’ve thought about over the years and I’m positive about and I’m sure about and I know, so I don’t want you to do anything contrary”. My first daughter, she’s a rasta. She is just doing her Degree now in Trinidad, and the moment she passed her A-levels she just stopped combing her hair, started being a vegetarian, and that’s brilliant. Because, that’s my work. You know, it shows me that I did something good. She is what is called a A-grade student. She is the brightest student in Trinidad, to date.
Alright.
So, I was telling my son the other day, “Listen…?” “But daddy I don’t shave, I don’t comb, I don’t cut my hair…” I said, “OK, that’s good enough…”. So we can talk now as man and man, y’know wha’ I mean? I’m so glad, yeah. And that’s… here I am. Being me, it’s not something that… you see a lot of people thought it was a fad! It’s gonna be something that is just gonna be here only for a time, being a rasta, and then…
You mean something fashionable, things that eventually fade away… as if the movement in the sixties and the following decade was a trend only. Even if a lot jumped on a bandwagon at that time, it’s still a movement beyond any form of fashion, that can’t take out the roots of it?
Yes. Like it was a trend, y’know wha’ I mean. They didn’t know that it was a livity. It was something that I personally transpired, to the fullness. And then it started happening where people… I remember this guy from Africa, looking for Bob Marley. Nineteenseventy… what was it now? Seventyeight. And I was up there sleeping and one a my friends them came an’ call me, a few a them and say, “Bwoy, there’s a man now downstairs who want to see Bob, he’s from Africa, y’know. And he’s got something there he say that he brought for Bob and he want fe show it to us, y’know” (laughs)! So anyway, we told him about it and come and meet him. So I say OK, I went downstairs, I met him, and the first word I said to him… you know, he fell on his face, and his knees, and his elbows, and bowed down on the ground saying to me, “You speak like the Gods! What can we Africans do for you? Tell us and we’ll do it!” And I was like “Wha’!?” So me say “Hey, get up, man!” Me seh “Get up, get up!” Me seh, “Hold on deh! Before yu say anyt’ing on, weh yu a come for an’ seh so?” And him say him a come to look fe Bob Marley. And I say well, Bob Marley was here yesterday. But is not a person weh yu can seh “him a come today”. But ‘im will also just come in. Ca’ him jus’ come when him feels like it. Him give we no warning about it, him just come in the night, any time of the day or the whole of the morning if him feel to come him just come. So if you wanna stay an’ meet Bob you can stay. We give you a place to stay – you get food and whatever you acquire basically, and you can meet Bob if you want. And then he started asking me a few questions an’ things like that and then he just looked at me and just said “You know what? Now that I’ve met you I don’t want to see Bob Marley again”. And he gave me these two books, and I took them. I read them in three days – I took three days fe read them beca’ that’s how I am. When I have a book I jus’ read it until it finish. And pass it on to my friends so they can have a read as well. And I finished these two books, pass it on to my friend them and then someone went and told Bob that this guy came from Africa looking for him and I’ve got whatever he brought. So Bob called me one day and seh “Me hear yu ‘ave two book for me ya know, wha’ happen? Give me them”. So me a seh “Ya ‘ear me now – me get the two books, but ya hear me? See, if yu waan read them you a come a Trench Town come read them, ca’ them nah leave Trench Town” (laughs). And they’re still there now, they are still there. Yeah, those two books. Said a lot to me in that… in different ways. And the guy looked at me and said to me “Don’t ever look for me in life again, you will never ever see me in life again, y’know”. And I’ve never seen this guy again, y’know. I’ve never ever seen this guy again. Or even heard of him again or anything like that.
OK, I’ve heard of him. No, I don’t think that… Yeah, because this guy was… I’ve never seen any one person – his nose was straight as an arrow! His skin was as black as crude oil – that’s how his skin is. His lips was red like cherry, and his eyes was black and white. I’ve never seen anyone like that before in my life. And there was no pimple bum, you could see no pours on his skin – his skin was so smooth. I’ve never met anyone like that before, or after. Yeah, the guy said “Don’t ever look for me in life, y’know. Because you will never ever see me in life again but remember – take care of those two books because I brought them to give Bob Marley because I know that if Bob Marley had these two books black people would be safe!” That’s exactly what the guy say to me, you know! I’m telling you, man… So these things start showing me that there was a spiritual power that was surrounding the whole thing, what was happening, with my friends and myself. Those things now triggered my thoughts to go deeper. In myself, to find myself more. So we could even have this conversation we have today.
So you were around a lot at Hope Road? Met the ghetto bad boys like Frowser and Tek Life and other notorious gunmen of the time?
Oh yeah. But we know them before though, we know all a dem. Beca’ most of them used to come to Trench Town , because Trench Town was the graduating point for bad boys. If you wanted to be a bad boy, and you don’t come from Trench Town, you ain’t a bad boy – you don’t know anyt’ing about badness. You understand me? If you wanted to be in the edgeland of badness, you had to have that reputation of coming from Trench Town them days (laughs)! You know, so the Tek Lifes and all a dem were boys for us in a sense that they had to come to Trench Town and somehow, sometime in their lives their parents passed through Trench Town. Sometime in their life. So all a dem, the whole a dem – you name them – the Claudie Massops, all a them, they had to…
Frowser and Tek Life both had to meet their destiny…
Frowser? Yeah, they all died, innit? Because you see I think a lot of my friends and my brothers made the mistakes by thinking politics was the solution to our social problems. And politics was not the solution. Politics was only…
Increased the problems?
It inflamed the problem, because political parties was looking for power, people to support their ideology an’ things like that. Which, if it took guns or someone dying, I don’t think it would be a problem for them throughout their work at the time. So it was serious, serious politics in Jamaica. But they made a mistake, they thought that it would be the whole of the half that’s never been told. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t.
Back to Zukie now… by the way, before that – the ‘Camouflage’ single on the Trenchtown label, what sort of response did you get for that first record – in the community, etc?
Alright, I tell you something. That song, we released it and it mostly…
How big was the pressing?
We sell a few thousand, but it was mostly in America. It was mostly in America because George took it to America and we just got like complimentary copies for Jamaica. And then he said to us that we could build an album because he was looking on the money for us to do an album. Because he saw the talent and he saw that it could be developed. Then now in comes Tappa Zukie, and George became our lawyer, instead of our producer. So he worked for us free now. Whatever contracts we wanted to sign he would be the first to draw them up and things like that, just to be knowing that OK, he was part of this Trench Town… and he got out. So he can input something, and he did.
You were saying something about Tappa at that stage, he was a bit immature…? Someone not to trust, unreliable?
Oh yes! He was immature, he is just in his business attitude. Like for instance, the reason we fell out, because we had a falling out after the first album, is that… and being off in hindsight now, was stupid too – to be frank. Due to the fact that he knew what was happening on the international scene, and we didn’t.
He travelled a lot and could scout what was going on, which moves to make…
Yes! So when… what really caused me and him to go loggerheads was that… we never quarrel. We just didn’t go on with any production or anything like that. Whenever I was writing a song – for if I started writing a song today and you came along and heard it – you want me to record it today! So me say the song is not finished yet! This is only the punchline or this is only a few lines of the chorus. Or this is only a part of the lyrics, this is not the song… Him say “No, a dat mi want! Come! Come, we a gwan to studio!” And I’m saying no, because I was looking at it that I needed to put out songs that I would be proud of, later on in life. But he was just thinking of… bredda, I can’t use any other word but just the commercial side of it. He knew what would go well down with the public – especially in England. We didn’t at the time, so I was thinking of musical perfection while he was thinking of commercial success (laughs)! So I’m saying now with hindsight I would have done another album with Tappa, because it would’ve taken us to another level, you understand that?
It wasn’t talk of a second album?
Yeah! We did! We did talk about it but we didn’t finish it beca’ he was taking the songs them prematurely, to the studios. Like OK, there’s a song on the album called ‘Word Sound & Power’. And that song is not completed! And he took it, and he said “Come, we going to the studio with that song”. And I’m saying “Look, the song jus’… it started today”. Just today, and he come an’ heard it and just seh “Come we a go to studio NOW! We do dat song yah!” And I’m like “Zukie, wha’ yu doin’?” You know, so I say “You know what? We gonna do this album with you and that’s it!” And it just went from there. So I said to myself, he was a bit immature, in a lot of ways in how he conduct his business. But as I said with hindsight I think I was stupid as well, but… here we are!
Oh yeah! That wasn’t a problem. ‘Cause the reason for saying it wasn’t a problem, as I said to you earlier, in them days we were not thinking of money, we were thinking of the music – in educating the people. And that’s hence the name “Knowledge”. That’s how the group got the name Knowledge. Because we thought that facts is something that we all need. The whole world need facts – the whole earth need facts. And if we can get facts then we would be wiser people. So we came up and said you know what we gonna name the group Knowledge and we gonna sing nothing but knowledge! And you know (laughs)…
Yeah, that was the concept of the group. And that’s why we are here today. Because we had a concept, y’know. We had a brilliant concept. And I’ve lived it up to today, I’ve been a vegetarian for what… thirty years now, or more.
The others in the group like Earl McFarlane, Samuels and Fowlin – what was their previous experience in the music?
Well, the only experience I knew Michael Samuels had was he used to sing for harmony, because they all locks their hair before I did. Because I went to school till I was eighteen. They left school when they were fifteen, an’ things like that. So they were streetwise boys before me. And he used to be the one that entertain the rest a dem that was on the streets together. When we formed the group they all came to me and said “Bwoy, him sing for we every night – wha’ ‘appen?! Put him in a group – the man him can sing!” So, we said no problem. Bring him come, and when him come he is somebody that we know well, that we grew up together with, so no problem. Fowlin now he used to dance, he used to be a very good dancer. Have you ever seen that, the dance group that Bunny Wailer have with him sometime? The boys them have this rag in them pockets an’ whole of the pants, trousers rolled up and doing these dances. You ever seen a Bunny Wailer concert?
Yes, I saw him live in around 1990 and he had a whole troupe with him, something to represent all aspects of the…
… of the era, yes? And he had some boys doing what is called that kind of robotic dancing – weh them move a certain way…? Robotic style. Well, Delroy was one a dem kind of dancers. Y’know, he had that experience being on stage at an early age (to) bring those dances. So, he had that. So artistically we were endowed, y’know. So it was what is called now five separate talents really, in the group. If we could’ve gotten that together and kept it together, it would’ve been an experience for Trench Town on a whole. Then when we formed the group and five of us started singin’ and putting out records with Zukie, then there was another group coming out of Trench Town called Earth Disciples. Have you ever heard of them?
Earth Disciples…?
Yeah, Bob Marley produced their first record. I think it’s the only record them done.
They recorded for Tuff Gong?
Yeah, Bob did it on a 45. And they had a tutoring from Bob that we didn’t have because we never sung for Bob Marley. We only sung for three or four people. The first one was Scratch, the second one was Rookwood, and the third one was Zukie. And then now we sing for Tamoki-Wambesi.
Yeah, we’re coming to that later…
OK.
So you’re saying Zukie hid a lot of what you were owed from the sales of the A&M album? I wouldn’t be surprised to be honest…
Oh yeah, yeah. Up to the other day we got some money from Trojan for the ‘Word Sound & Power’ reissue. First album ‘Hail Dread’, he reissued it with Trojan and he didn’t call us and tell us. I had to see it in the shops, and bought a copy. I’ve never had a penny…
From Trojan? I thought he reissued it on his own Tappa label in Jamaica around 1990 – only. I saw though that he have a track from Knowledge on a recent compilation on Trojan.
With Trojan? ‘Sentry’?
I think it’s ‘Fools & Their Money’ on that. I believe it’s titled ‘Jah Love Forever’, or something like that (‘Jah Love Rockers’ actually, new double CD anthology with productions from Lloydie Slim, Zukie, Bunny Lee and Niney)?
You’re joking?
It looks like Tappa has a new deal with Trojan. They did reissue his 1973 debut ‘Man A Warrior’ not long ago, and it looks like it’s more to come.
Yes, album, yes. Yes, ‘Fools & Their Money’ – that was a song, y’know. That was a sound, man. I will never be able to beat that sound again, that I made on that song. Because when I sung that song I had a… I was coming off a cold. So, you know, the tone is gonna be different anyway. And I can never catch that cold again to make that tone (laughs)! Yeah, honest I have fe laugh about that song because the tone is so beautiful but I had a cold, and that cold gave me a tone. I can’t capture that tone again.
Well, having a cold it definitely get your vocals a different quality, something you probably as a recording artist would want to capture immediately, like “lets go to the studio, gotta get this down on tape – now!”?
Yes!
So at the subject of the reception of your material in JA – I always get that vibe about Knowledge that you were more or less a “foreign” group, not a local affair, more so an overseas act?
It is. This is wha’ ‘appen. The first time, I think it only once… we never had… The only sound that used to play our music was our own sound – we had a sound called Startime. And, have you heard of Massive Dread?
Yes. Well, most of those hits like ‘Soca Rumba’ and them hits, we gave him the inspiration for those. Yeah, called him and say “listen to this”. And he just took it an’ had Valerie Cowan… went to the studio, and he had ‘Soca Rumba’ which went number two behind Yellowman in the eighties. So he was the only sound that would play Knowledge. And up to today it is only a few, maybe two sounds, that can play a Knowledge special. Because I was saying to myself if a record is gonna be a special then no other sound should be able to play it. So whenever I give a special to a sound no other sound get that special. They would have to get something different. And I’ve only done specials for two sounds.
And they are called?
One is called… what is it – Birmingham, England called… Love Express. And there is another sound called Conscious Melody. This was done in the 1980’s.
Did you have any business whatsoever with A&M after this deal for the first album?
Well, I think what happened… I think Zukie and we fell out so he couldn’t go back to them with anything for Knowledge and that was a bit upsetting for them. So it just died there.
It didn’t sell as well as it could have?
No. Ca’ we didn’t even tour – there was no tour. Not even a promotional tour or anything like that. And that was very annoying. And then now we went to a company in Switzerland…
How did that come about?
There was a lady called Ira Schader. And she was… that’s the word I was looking for earlier: an anthropologist. Yes, I just said you were an anthropologist, yes (laughs). And there was this lady, she was with the Red Cross as well. And she decided to take up Tappa Zukie an’ some issues that he was saying on the television that she saw. And he was saying that he wanted to do things for Trench Town. So she was saying OK, so she wrote him and I replied. And then she came to Jamaica and saying that she wanted to do something for Trench Town. So we took her around Trench Town and showed her a few things, and she got involved. She went back to Switzerland and she raised up some money so we could all start up what is called a Old Peoples Home in Trench Town. And…
Is that the Golden Age Centre you’re referring to?
That’s it! It’s called The Ira Schader Golden Age Home, yeah.
‘Cos I remember, was this together with Zukie? Yea, I can recall an article from around that same time where a reporter met Zukie down in Trench Town and he was in the early stage of building some kind of center, for either youths or elders?
Yes, it did manifest. It’s still there today. And so she now with her projects in mind and then with the music there were people in Switzerland that she spoke to who had record companies, and they were interested. So we got involved with them and gave them our second album. The company is called Future Sounds – Peryfery Perfumes, have you heard of them? One of the managers or directors was a Czechoslovak, and one was a Swiss – Renato Balignoly. He had a what is called a graphics company. So he just branched off and did some promotion – they printed some ten thousand copies. I don’t think they did a reprint ’cause it took them a few years to sell them ten thousand copies. But what happen was that we were supposed to do twentytwo shows to promote the album, but Zukie because he held us… wasn’t in talking terms in the sense of business, he went and did the shows on his own and didn’t take us. So we didn’t get that promotional experience either for the album so all of that went out as well. So it’s all just some simple lickle things that could have made it different. But, give thanks we’re still here.
And this is the early part of the 1980’s, the follow-up album ‘Judgement’ didn’t take off and what happened? The group decided to go their own separate ways at this point?
Yeah, Michael Samuels went his way.
He went to Los Angeles I believe.
Mmm… He went his way, and Earl McFarlane died.
Got shot, yeah?
Yeah, we put two more people in the group to take their place. And unfortunately they died as well, from gunshots. So it’s just the three of us, and so we say we ain’t puttin’ nobody in the group.
No doubt Knowledge has a very “violent” history!
(Laughs) Very! Our past is blood… I’m tellin’ you, man. I’m telling yuh! So all of these t’ings…
But emotionally or mentally speaking, how does it affect you when people close to you, in such circumstances as these, when you have something going and it just have to continue, for survival or whatever. It’s not something you can emotionally switch off – you just get affected by it in whatever ways it reach you?
Oh yes, it is a scar! It scarred. Because one of the things that really annoyed me was that Earl died – and we didn’t know! We thought that he was in Africa! Because I went away to Trinidad and when I came back they said that Earl is in Africa. That time Earl died and nobody knew beca’ the guy who killed him painted a picture that he’s gone away. Ca’ someone killed him that was close to him.
Avoid attention…
So he took away the attention from him an’ say he was away. So when I came back and they were saying that Earl is in Africa… I know that he is a person of his own mind so I thought OK, he has gone to Africa. And it took seven years for us to find out that he died… from gunshots and was buried in Trench Town.
After seven years?
After… yeah! So you can imagine! His mom was mad with me, his brothers was mad with me because they were saying “you knew”! And I were saying “No, I didn’t know”. Ca’ when I found out I called them an’ said to them seh “I thought that Earl was in Africa! How come Earl died?”. And they said “No, we didn’t know neither, we thought it was as you said”. And I’m saying “Well, how could I know?”. These people they all died as well, the people who did it, so…
Someone told me. Someone that was there came to me and said “Bwoy, I have a confession to make, yunno”. And he told me an’ me seh “What!?”
Well, Earl was a bit mouldy, innit? And this guy was a bad boy, y’know (chuckles). So if you try to humiliate him, he’s gonna react. And that’s how Earl died. So… and then Michael (Samuels) died after. You know, was messing about with people’s things that he shouldn’t be messing with.
Was that in Jamaica too?
Yeah, it was in Jamaica.
After he had left Los Angeles then. He did one tune there – it was an old track that was released, wasn’t it?
‘Dreadlocks Time’…?
Uhm, was it? I think it was ‘Give I & I Some Work’?
Oh, ‘Give I & I Some Work’, yeah.
For this guy Anthony Doeman (now deceased), I believe. An old tape then?
Yeah, that was an old, old tape. Yeah, so Michael died and then…
Almost the same circumstances?
Yeah! That’s crazy – stupidness, innit! Gunshots, and all a dem die from gunshots – that’s the evil part of it. They all died from gunshot wounds. And if I wasn’t careful, I don’t know what would’ve happened. I had to be careful. Because then I wasn’t one of them rastas who was just rastas. You know, so nutten could influence me. I don’t think politicians in Jamaica like that. They like when you can be influenced.
Independent…
Well, when you’re independent, you become a threat. So I just said to myself “You know what, I ain’t gonna make these people take away the care that I was supposed to take care of myself”. So I just took care of myself, man. And, here I am.
Right. So what became of the remaining parts of the group now – you split and didn’t reform until you made this album for Tuff Gong, around ’86? What happened around this time?
Oh, we went on tour in the West Indies. Went with the Diamonds, Freddie McGregor, Judy Mowatt, Royal Rasses, Arrow – from Montserrat… soca singer. Pablo Moses, Pablove Black and a few others – we all went on tour. In the early 1980’s, that’s where I met my first child’s mom – in Trinidad. And we just had this problem, that we were living in Trench Town. And all the producers an’ t’ings were from the other side of the political spectrum. Which was the PNP party. So if we go out there, we’re gonna have a problem. So the group wasn’t really defunct, it was just under the umbrella of being in Trench Town. We didn’t want to go out there and get hurt. You know, so we just said “You know what, we ain’t gonna rush ourselves, we’re just gonna stay at home and rehearse and practice and perfect our voices an’ perfect our writing”, and etcetera. Because if we went out there, we would have all kinda problems. For instance, guys would be saying things like “Wha’? Dem group ya – a Trench Town dem come from, yunno! Dem bwoys deh a rey, rey, rey yunno and would all fire shot offa we an’ we haffe go fire back shot” (laughs)! So my grandmother always tell me “prevent is always better than cure”. So we prevented that, and it seems like that lapse cause us to be out of the mainstream of reggae artists from Jamaica. But, we took it up back… with Roy Cousins.
Yes, but you did this lp ‘Strive For the Highest’ before that though?
Yes, that’s our own production.
How did that project come about? It was in ’87 this was done through Tuff Gong?
Yes, what we did was… in 1976… ’78, when everybody was in the peace… you remember the peace…?
The peace movement, the One Love Peace Concert?
Right. Yeah, well, everybody was writing peace songs – Jacob Miller, Peter Tosh, all a dem was writing peace songs. And me now I said that I’m gonna write a peace song but it’s gonna be different – the word “peace” is not gonna be in it. So I sat down and I wrote this song ‘Strive For the Highest’. Because the lyrics goes like (sings): “It’s so good to see people changing, and they all have their reasons”. And the harmony says: “All have their reasons, that’s like the sun that shines, everything have its season, everything was made good, set was better and the best, all humans are expected to strive for the highest”. So, I wrote my peace song, and I wrote that ’78. When we had some money from the tour, in the early eighties, we decided to go in the studio and make another album, for ourselves.
So this is basically early 1980’s sessions, released some five years after they came about?
Yes, five years after. When we did the ‘Judgement’ album we said OK, no problem. We’re gonna do another album. So we put in two more members in the group to make it up to the five. Beca’ we have lost two. And went to the studio and all the older songs we said we’re gonna put them on the album, make up this compiles album together. And we’re gonna name it ‘Strive For the Highest’. ‘Cause the melody for it was so good, the lyrics were brilliant and the instrumental accompaniment were fitting, so we said we make this be the title track for the album. And we put it to Tuff Gong, because them knew us – everybody in Tuff Gong knew us, as Bob’s associate an’ close friend from long time, an’ things like that. So when we went we said, “Family Man, we’ve got an album”. So him said alright, “You want put it out, OK”. So they put it out.
About 500! We just press five hundred. We gave them to distribute mainly, they didn’t put it out. We pressed five hundred and put it out ourselves. They just had the label of Tuff Gong on it to distribute. It was just a distribution deal we had signed with them. So we just said no, we ain’t pressing no more. It’s something that we had to get together. And that was – I, personally speaking now – I needed to get my peace of mind. And peace of mind – as I said earlier – doesn’t come with money. Peace of mind come before money. So if you’re gonna have peace of mind, then money, you’ll be a better person. So I set out on this treck, I just wanna find peace of mind. And I started reading a lot, just reading, reading, reading a lot. And speaking to older people as well, I enjoy speaking to someone of the age of eighty. You know, seventy or the eighty years old. Because they’ve got a history with them. And so I went on that quest, and put my head together. Then I started valuating things as well. I started realising the value of the things that I know, and the things that I’ve seen and experienced. So I’m saying “Yeah, I’m getting there”. And then when I reached that summit of thought, I said to myself “You know wha’, OK, we going fi sing again” because I’ve got all the ingredients that is required now to be able to put it across, as I would like it to be heard. And I went to Tamoki-Wambesi.
Yeah, when did you move to England in the first place?
’88.
You had some relatives in England I guess?
Yeah, my mom. My mom did live here from ’59.
So you settled down in London. How did you link up with Roy (Cousins), he has been based in the UK since the mid 1980’s too, you knew each other from earlier on?
Yeah, we knew each other from Jamaica. Because he was in…
… in the Royals.
Yes, and he was a postman as well. And I knew him from then. And the songs that he had was great. So when I came to England and someone… I met this photographer, her name is… what’s her name? She died now. Anyway, I met her one day and she said, “You know something? You are Knowledge, aren’t you? You know, why don’t you come to such and such a place? I can give you a number for him, you can call him?” And I said, “Wow, that’s beautiful”. And I contacted Roy and he said, “Bwoy, how yu doin’?” And I said, “Yeah man, me still singin'”. And me said, “Me cyaan stop!” (laughs). You know, and I said, “So mek we do some now?” And he said, “Of course!” So there was no money, but we did it!
But this lp is based on old riddim tracks?
It’s old riddims, yea. ‘Cos him never have no money fe hire a studio so I said to him, I said, “Roy, I’ve got some money, we can go to the studio an’ make riddims – I would spend my money”. He said, “No, I am the producer, and yu no spend no money – you’re the artist. Come!” (chuckles). So he gave me these riddims and I looked at him and I said, “Roy, I’ve never done this before”. I’ve always sung on my own melodies. So him seh, “Well, because you haven’t been for a long time on the scene I think this would be brilliant to introduce back the group”. So I said, “Not a bad idea, mek we work”. So I work, and produce the ‘Stumbling Block’ album.
There was a couple of singles from this album, yeah? I remember I picked up ‘Chant Rastaman’ at the time, and there was…
Yep! And ‘Fire Burn’.
There was another one as well -‘Lend A Helping Hand’?
That’s a good song, yunno! “Shoulder to lean on”.
Also ‘Na Buy Apartheid’?
‘Na Buy Apartheid’… that song is a… “you broke our bones”. Yeah, that was a protest song. I was protesting, innit (laughs)!? “We na buy apartheid”!
Suitable for the times.
Yeah (laughs)! That was good. You see, when I remember that song I have to laugh because I was looking at “they broke our bones”, and I was looking at people like Muhammad Ali, during the time of him not going to Vietnam. And I had Nelson Mandela in mind, and I just put this in the words together “they broke our bones, but we na buy apartheid” (laughs).
But on these recordings, it was only you now from the original group?
No, no, is me an’… have you ever heard of a song…? There was a song years ago – I think it’s the early 1970’s, it goes something like this (sings) “You can run, you can run but you cannot hide, you can’t hide you can’t hide, but you can’t avoid the destruction…”?
Yeah, that sounds like The Hurricanes – it was done for Perry. That is basically Danny from the Meditations as I know it, perhaps Winston Jarrett was involved as well.
OK, well… the guy who make that song, he’s here in England with me now. And he’s a Trench Townian as well.
Who is this?
Uhm, we call him “Struggle”. Yeah, he’s called Struggle now. Yeah, but what happen now is that he was a better singer than Delroy Wilson – him and Delroy Wilson was two close friends when growing up as boys. And him an’ Delroy Wilson was the closest so the two of them was supposed to go to Mr Dodd that day to do the audition. But something happened, I think he broke off him toe? And him couldn’t wear shoes. So he didn’t go and Delroy went – and got the audition. And that’s how you hear of Delroy more than him. So I just… when I saw him in England I just said to him “Come, we’re going to the studio, we put some harmonies to these songs”. And that’s how we did it (laughs)!
It is! Very cheap. If you noticed… Well, if you noticed there’s not a Knowledge out there apart from the Roy Cousins that is sung on any others riddim. Because, when I realised… I just did it because he said to me, “You know, you haven’t been out there for a long while – introduce back yourself, these are roots riddims”. So I said, “OK, lets go”. But that’s it, it stop there.
Yeah, so I went back… I’m one a dem people who is adamant about singin’ on other riddims, I’m very adamant and against it because it cheapens the music, it’s the right word. And it takes away the talent from the creator as well because you can’t create your own melodies. You got to be living off melodies, and then all the young singers who are coming up thinking that is the way. And that’s why the music is so poor now. In the sense of artistry. You know, there is no artistry in the music at all nowadays because of all a that. Everybody think “Yeah man, give me the riddim deh! Give me the sleng-teng riddim deh!” And he’s gone thinking that he is making music – and he’s not, you understand me (laughs)! And that’s why the music is in this dilemma today. And people is coming to me and saying, “Bwoy, that deejay deh cyaan sing yunno, man!” So me say, “Hold on deh, yu jus’ said to me a deejay, and then yu a seh “deejay” and then you a say “sing” – which deejay can sing?? There’s no deejay I know who can sing, there’s no deejay records that is a singin’ record, it’s deejaying”. So people is getting all this mix-up and all them kinda things happening. Yeah, so is the right word – it’s cheap. And I told Roy. I said, “Roy, you ain’t gonna get no other chance like that” (chuckles). So what happened now is that I had some money the other day and I went in the studio and I made some original riddims. And some original… everything, man. It’s brilliant. I’m just looking for a good company now. I was offered some money the other day by M10 (a French distributor – P) an’ the money wasn’t enough that they offered. They offered fifteen thousand, I said no. I spent more than that on the album, so come up with some better…
Vocally speaking, it struck me comparing the vocals on the Cousins production and the more rough singing on the majority of the Zukie recordings, you obviously have more…
Yeah, finesse.
It’s like you have more space to work with your voice, you “stretch” the vocal further than you did before, more atmosphere, more strength, perhaps more confidence, even.
Yeah, it’s maturity as well. I did, I did. Of course.
Doesn’t sound like the singer on the Tappa production, that is for sure.
No, it doesn’t, no way near. No way near (laughs)! And if you hear this new one that is coming out now it’s a total different range again. Because this one… I sit and I sing every day. I play my guitar every day, and I’m experimentin’ with my voice as well. And what has happened now is that I use the word maturity in the sense that OK, after years of practising an’ t’ings then you know the corners. In other words they say that old broom sweep clean? No, new broom sweep clean and old broom know the corners. So, I know where I can go. We can reach there and there because of rehearsals. So I put that on the records for Tamoki-Wambesi. And then on this new album now is a whole different range again because I’m going in areas that is brand new. I’ve got even what is called modern ska. You ever hear that word? Modern ska. Well, I’ve got modern ska on this album here. And it’s beautiful, it’s taking… something else. You will have to hear it.
So after that project with Cousins, what was next? There was a long gap between that and… this talk of the ‘Great Experience’ album?
Oh, ‘Great Experience’ is this one I’m telling you about. Yeah, this is the one I’ve produced myself.
This has been going for a couple of years?
Yes, from ’99, or 2000. I haven’t finished it yet. Because of funds I haven’t finished it. I have finished eleven tracks out of thirteen. For this I just wanna do some, like, finishing touches to the lead vocals, and then finish the other two tracks and it should be ready for the public.
But there was no other work for anyone else, during the nineties?
No.
What did you do for the most part of that decade, what was the…?
Just read. I just read a lot. And helped a few people along the way. For instance, I did some investments in promoting reggae artists like Prince Alla, the Mighty Diamonds. I made sure they got good pay. And the show was professionally put together, and everything was in order. Because I was saying to myself that as an artist I know how you feel when you leave your country, and everything is not together. So I made sure, so I did some promotions over the nineties. And, well, Prince Alla. From the moment when I took him and he made the first show, he’s been touring ever since.
Some Knowledge singles I want to know about, apart from the first one and the works for Tappa and Cousins there are a few others, such as ‘Man Talk Truth’ and ‘Let Us All Stand Up’ which both came upon the Knowledge College label? What is the origin of those? Tapper Zukie?
Yes… None a those are Tappa. None are Tappa. Those are the ones from the ‘Judgement’ album from Switzerland. Yeah, none a those are Tapper Zukie, Knowledge produced that.
“Knowledge College” – your own company I suppose?
Yeah, that was our own label. And the ‘Rod of Iron’ song now too, it was distributed by Tuff Gong in Jamaica as a single. It went up to Miami, didn’t come to Europe. It sold a couple of copies. It is the only song in the world that I have collected royalties from, yunno? ‘Rod of Iron’. It is the only song that I have ever collected royalties from. All the other songs, I have never collected royalties. And Tuff Gong put it out and one day I went there and they said “Oh, we’ve got some money, we got a check here for you”. And they showed me the overseas statements and… is the only song I’ve ever collected from, no other song (laughs)!
Well, that’s the love of it, isn’t it (laughs)! That’s the love of it. Because you see what happen is that I said to myself and to the rest of the group – ‘cos we had that beautiful rapport with each other, we still do, is that we don’t wanna be making songs that is not edifying. We wanna use the media to educate ourselves – per se’, yeah? And that way we know that the half that has never been told will somehow come out. Because that half is very important to make our own. So we said that there’s a certain way that we are gonna sing and a certain type of lyrics that we’re gonna produce. It all… isn’t based on money. So when we didn’t get any royalty an’ things like that we didn’t see it as a setback. We just saw it as OK, one day the truth must surface because the truth does seem like oil. So we jus’ said is alright, we’re just gonna sing and put out music and later down our grandchildren might inherit some kind of… whatever will come off a that.
Yea, the spin-off…
Yeah, the “spin-offs” (laughs)! So we are saying to ourselves, it’s OK. Because, when you are a pioneer you are a pioneer. I mean, America is the richest economic country in the world, and those pioneers they have been through the roughest times. So we’ve got to look at it that way, when you’re making a foundation then you have to be thinking of escalation. You have to escalate, foundate, so you can build. A no so?
Build some kind of legacy.
Of course. So that’s what we said. I just buried my thoughts in educating myself. As I said I just went into books. I just started reading, I just started going to the libraries like every day for a year. Just reading, reading, reading, reading, reading… Just to make sure when the time come like now I am able to be eloquent – I am able to say the things that went on in my mind in the seventies, in the sixties. I am able to put them into perspective. I am able to balance them properly from my personal upliftment as well, y’know. No money never come, but the legacy deh-deh (laughs)!
Right.
Oh! That’s more than money! Because there is a lot of people that made a lot of money, but there’s no legacy. And I’m so pleased that we made that choice from a early stage in our professional career. You know, ’cause now it’s paying off. Because people like you and others who are what is called collectors and…
… “anthropologists”?
“Anthrop-…” (laughter)!
I never knew what it was, but now I know (laughs)!
(Still laughing) I like that. There was a lady who used to live in Finland by the name of “Elena Ratanavaara”. You ever heard of her?
I know about someone called Sister Rat, if this is the same person?
Yes, that’s her. Sister Rat, Helina Rautanavaara. (coughs) She…
I think she used to be on the radio (correction: that’s actually a totally different person, I found out from reliable source. Helina herself had a very interesting lifestory and spent a great deal of time in JA in the late seventies, but sadly passed away a couple of years ago)?
Yes, and she came to Jamaica. And, you know, she used to spend a whole… she would just spend hours looking at me, yunno? Staring at me and drawing, ’cause she is a very good artist. And she would just draw my features and different positions and (laughs)… Sometimes my friends would say to me, “You know, she’s crazy”, because I’m not paying her any mind. I know she’s there because she comes and say hi and we make sure she’s OK and whatever she requiers, you know, it’s available. But then she would just spend time looking at me, and if I’m cooking… lickle more showed me a sketch of me bending over the fire blowing the wood – “pphhh!”, blowing the coal – “pphhh!”, and all the ashes coming up in my face (laughs)! Yeah, Helina Rautanavaara (laughter)!! And she gave me a joke one day. She said to me, “You know, I’ve been all over Jamaica, and Trench Town is the only place that I’ve been to that somebody invite me for dinner!” Yeah! Beca’ when she came to Trench Town to look for us some of the neighbours saw her and said, “What?!” “You come here every day, you know what? Sunday coming, come here to my house for dinner”. And she was sooo, you know, pleased because no one had ever done that to her. And Trench Town is supposed to be the worst place, y’understand? So she was very, very impressed. She’s got some sketches of me, yah man.
Long time ago?
Oh, that was in ’76, ’77. Yeah, Helina Rautanavaara, from Helsinki, Finland.
So how did this compilation CD with the French Makasound label come about?
Oh, well, this is magic again. Makasound is Romain and Nicolas. They have a friend by the name of Electric Dread…
(Winston) McAnuff?
McAnuff! Now, Nicolas was on a quest to find all the abstract reggae artists, the ones that was not…
Like neglected, obscure?
Ah! OK, obscure, right. So he and McAnuff went on this verbal quest of saying things like, “McAnuff, you know seh for every artist me aks you for you know weh dem deh? You give me a connection with them. I bet you cyaan find one artis’?” And McAnuff seh… McAnuff said to him, “Any artist weh sing reggae music, and yu waan find, me can find them for you”. So Nicolas look at him and say, “OK, I going call a name and you will never ever find this named artist – Knowledge!” And Electric Dread just smiled, and seh “Yu talkin’ Anthony Doyley?” And he went in his pocket, took out his mobile phone and rang my number, and when I answered him said, “How yu do?!” Me seh, “Me cool, everything alright”. Him seh, “Talk to da man yah!” And he put Nicolas on the phone and Nicolas say (in very English accent): “Hello”. And I, with this rough voice: “Hello! Irie…”. Him said, “Are you Anthony Doyley?” I said, “Yes”. “Are you sure, from the group Knowledge?” He said, “I can’t believe it, I was just joking with McAnuff and I didn’t know he really knew you – I thought you guys were missing, man!” And that’s… it started from there, just like that.
Yeah, 2000, or 2001. Yep, that’s how it all started and he was saying, “Bwoy, I’m coming to England, man”. And he came to England, and we sat down. I told him that Tappa Zukie had the rights to the material. So we contacted Tappa and we gave him two thirds of the… what do they call that again? When them give you the money?
Advance, that’s it! So he got two thirds of the advance. But the t’ing is, he got two thirds of the advance but still yet he’d never ever – when he got money from the album (‘Hail Dread’) he would never give us any money. Like, you know, say: “Bwoy, me get some money now offa the album”, or: “Me draw business with the album”. He’s never ever done that. That’s why I said to you I’ve never ever collected any money from royalties, outside of ‘Rod of Iron’. Ever.
Did you approach him about this?
Oh yeah, yeah. Spoke to him last year about it.
And he said?
He just laughed (chuckles).
Zukie is in one part a very talented roots producer, but there’s the badness?
Oh, he is. Love it, he love it… love the badness. But the good t’ing now is like, you see, how I look at it and the rest of the group that is still around, is that he’s done us good. In the sense that he’s established us.
Not the best for the business, but at least he gave you a break at the time?
Of course. And that’s why I say I don’t have any bad word to say of him, y’understand me? As I said earlier, the pioneers have to go through certain things. So I take it as “that was the work”, to do with him, to reach this stage. And I give lots of thanks for that, and hail him up, y’know. And as I said earlier, money wasn’t the order of the day. The order of the day was to get across what you were thinking and your assumptions and their conclusions, and also decisions, y’know. So, that was good enough for us. The pay, or the wages, is you! You get me (laughs)! Because now we know that we did something that someone here now is learning. Or had learnt from, and that’s the wages that we were looking for in the first place.
To reach out.
Yeah, to reach out. And he’s done that. Give thanks.
So how do you feel about the whole package, the presentation of the album?
‘Straight Outta Trench Town’? I think it’s great, I think it’s magic (laughs)! Yeah man, I like it. I can see that there was a lotta thought and time plus energy went into that. I appreciate that a lot.
How has the sales and response been to the album so far?
I haven’t got a statement yet. But they did two pressings already.
It’s certainly gonna boost the group out there again, the first push for whatever comes next.
Yes. And there’s so much that I would like to get across. For instance talentwise, there’s a certain amount of talent that I know that I possess and I would love to share it with the public. And this experience again that I’ve got that I would love to get the public a first hand knowledge of. There’s so much, you know, there’s so much…
If there’s ever been, the time seems now right for a serious comeback of this vocal group. Knowledge has the ‘Great Experience’ album to release this year – which presently looks like it could be issued through a Japanese label, as well as a re-release of the second lp ‘Judgement’, and possibly a tour. Tracks like ‘Fools & Their Money’ and ‘Make Faith’ will be released on 12″ respectively by Stars/Trojan this autumn, and ‘Population’ as well as ‘Good Luck My Friends’ found its way to be included on the Tapper Zukie anthology ‘Proud To Be Black’ earlier this year. Meanwhile, for starters (of this once-a-quintet-but-now-a-trio consisting of Doyley, Mikey Smith and Billy Bronco), and there’s a lot of them about, to get into the world and musical vision of Knowledge you’d be better off checking the 2002 ‘Straight Outta Trench Town’ (Makasound) anthology. It’s very well put together and features the best recordings they did on their own as well as the bulk of Tappa Zukie’s productions. Doyley’s inital experience with recording for Lee Perry after this interview took place got identified soon thereafter; The Classics’ first and only track for Perry was a single released in 1971 through Pama’s Punch imprint. For me, at least, it is the sort of track that simply sends shivers down your spine, it’s got that sort of quality about it. Roots music ahead of its time, and a stunningly mature teenage vocal performance. Doyley informed me that The Wailers had just recorded a first version of ‘Baby We’ve Got A Date’ (more known as ‘Rock It Baby’) just prior to the duo’s debut session at Randy’s back in 1969. Not a bad start.
Rod Of Iron
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